ANTHONY
I agree about the sword, I suppose we're stuck with it until the current round of movies cycles away.
MARVELBOY74
I believe Secret Six and Midnighter are gone, yeah, which is a rotten shame. but Shazam was announced as coming at a press event, along with
New Gods, JSA and - hurrah - Legion of Super-Heroes.
STEVE
Hmm, I'd not thought that Johns was Marvelling up DC so much as bringing back everyone from his childhood and maiming the rest.
ANONYMOUS
I'd ideally like a straightforward Linda Danvers Supergirl, continuing from the last run, but from Steve Orlando's later comments on Twitter and at Comics Vine, it seems we're getting a soft reboot with Cat, National City, the DEO and the TV Danvers. I'm good to see where they go with it. He really does seem to have a good understanding of Kara's character.
POLLUX DIOSCUROS
I was also disappointed, but see above!
And if any more comments come in, I'll be back! Thanks for your patience, folks.
Is there going to be a JSA reboot? It was my understanding that the Earth-2 title was going to continue on outside of Rebirth...
ReplyDeleteI believe the series will continue but I don't know if this is separate from the announced title featuring a displaced-in-time Justice Society.
ReplyDeleteYou jerk. I kept waiting for the comments to load, and wasted moments of my life. :P Anyway, I'm not happy with all the announcements or creators but I'm still happier than the first New 52. Way happier.
ReplyDeleteI want to see a photo of you, grinning!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI took one, so now how do I send it to you. :P
DeleteIf only we followed one another on Twitter!
Delete:) Unfortunately, I refuse to succumb to Twitter. :P
DeleteOh gah!
DeleteI've sort of come around a bit to this year's reboot, but there seems to be slim pickings for me among the titles announced, and a bunch of otherwise interesting creative teams (ie: Titans, Blue Beetle) will be working with legacy replacements for characters that I find uninteresting (in my defence, DC did bring back Ray, Hal and Barry, so they can't complain that it's just fanboyism if we say we aren't interested in ephemeral legacy characters).
ReplyDeleteAbout the only things that I'd consider would be Jurgens' Action Comics and Batman Beyond (who's back to being Terry McGinnis again rather than Tim Drake, further underlining my point about legacy characters), but both of those would depend entirely on Jurgens being left to his own devices for a year or so. The threeboot's biggest hurdle with readers, I think, is going to be convincing them that any of the relaunches are going to stick long enough to be worth investing in.
You're so right. Thinking back to the first year of the New 52, there were so many changes of creative team and direction, it was head-spinning. No wonder the new readers, and old readers too, abandoned the books. Let's hope the bad things we hear about the latest relaunch aren't representative of the quality that'll emerge.
DeleteI think there should be some kind of consistency or plan, albeit a rushed one. They may not have seemingly learned much over the past five years but with pressure to keep sales up and for the editorial crew to want to keep their jobs, I would think they'd be trying to avoid what they did wrong before. The next year will be interesting.
DeleteThis is coming from someone who is often labelled too cynical and jaded, so you know I'm a hopeless sap when it comes to DC.
Delete'Interesting' is understatement. I can't wait, I love to see how a reboot shakes out.
DeleteSo, you're the one who is actually behind all these reboots for past millennium!
Delete(Rubs hands with glee...)
DeleteYou'll probably know it, by now, but recent solicitations have confirmed that Clark "White"'s Superman IS Superman in both Action and main title. I suppose we have what we asked for, now let's hope for the best!
ReplyDeleteYeah, it'll be like when Lois and Clark had Chris Kent - I wonder if they'll give him a thought.
DeleteJust guessing, but as far as I can see, these Lois and Clark are taken in a point in time before all that happened. They seem to have been married not too long when Convergence happens, surely before Infinite Crisis and other soft reboots.
DeleteSince there's a new "Clark Kent," I wonder if this is referring to Pre-52 Kal or someone else. It would be odd if they don't have Superman being "Clark Kent" but "Clark White." I wonder if "New Super-Man" is a part of a "Superman Incorporated"-Super League or what. But, if Pre-52 Kal is coming from Convergence, it was supposed to be right before Flashpoint ended the universe, so Christ Kent would have occurred. I wonder though if there will ever be any reference to Pre-Flashpoint Kara again?
DeleteIs there any reference in the Convergence books to the actual point in time? I only read the two pre-FP Superman books, so my view is a bit narrow, but at the time DC referred to that group of books as "Zero Hour", so it shoud be around that particular crisis (immediately before, during or right after), which means Barry was still dead, Hal was Parallax (in a way) Robin was Tim Drake and Lois and Clark was newlyweds at best. Of course there are many inconsistencies (Jor-El and Lara are not the Byrne version, which still stood at that time, Wally has twins...) which can be easily explained when you meddle with multiple crisis in time, space and multiverseS.
DeleteI think the general idea of Convergence was to have the New 52 meet the Bronze age and the whateveryoucallem Nineties as they were around COIE and ZH respectively: no Birthright, Grounded, New Krypton and Third (or second! Sorry, Kara) Kryptonian to mess around. Probably.
That sounds about right, a pick'n'mix continuity, a Mosaic universe. I really enjoyed your thoughts on this!
Delete@Nobile: The "Lois and Clark" Convergence book was actually labelled under "Flashpoint," so from the reader's viewpoint, they had been married for some time, having encountered four Supergirls by then - although in forced aging for comic books - they may be as you say, still newlyweds, although at time of Jon's birth, they had been under their Dome for a year.
Delete"Speed Force" featuring Wally West was also Pre-Flashpoint, that's why he had twins, but I believe what it didn't address was why Iris was no longer called Impulse or why Jai had his powers. (The other Flash book was "COIE" featuring Crisis' Barry Allen.)
"Batgirl" was also Pre-Flashpoint, so the Tim Drake we read about in Convergence was Red Robin at that point, though the "Zero Hour" Batman and Azrael (and other characters) would indeed have come from a time when Tim was a newly minted Robin. :)
If only we could have had that mosaic universe. *SIGH*. At least the multiverse-hypertime-multiverse exists.
The so-called Band-Aid Project which was suggested to come from the after effects of "Convergence" is now seemingly coming after "Rebirth." At least the ending of this Event will cost less money even if it turns out to be terrible - though the results seem to suggest it will be costing me more money since I haven't spent this much money on DC since Convergence or Pre-New 52! :P
Darn, Uncle, you are absolutely right! I would have sworn on it being a ZH book. Maybe the fact that it was written by Dan Jurgens made me think it was set before in time. Actually the Superman depicted in those books is very much the one Jurgens used to write about back in the 90s, very different form Donner's or Straczinsky's, but that doesn't mean he did not cosider those stories, of course. Even thus, I think we have to accept a lot of inconsistencies and "poetic licenses".
DeleteThanks, Nobile. It's easy to be confused with the books. I have to admit you had me doubting what I thought, so I had to look them up online. After all, there were multiple Superman running around and not every one of them were shown in the spotlight in the actual Convergence book itself. I also forgot that there were four "Supergirls" as well, original Kara, Matrix, Pre-Flashpoint and Power Girl outside of New 52 Kara. I agree, having Jurgens on the book does bring about nostalgia for when he wrote the couple, and, really, it's been basically half a decade now where Superman and Lois have barely been friends in the comics. I also agree that artistic license was taken with the characters, such as having Earth-2 Robin in the wrong costume, most likely because they favoured the "Batman one". Of course, DC isn't exactly known for keeping continuity straight. :P
DeleteThanks for the second chance to comment Mart.
ReplyDeleteIn listening to the creators talk about the comics and even Johns' opening speech, I was more excited about this event than the New52. New52 seemed rushed and the resulting badly planned titles bore that out. This seems more organized? And better?
While I'm not sure about the Superman book directions (what's new), Supergirl sounds interesting.
But more importantly, there are characters who I haven't read in years who I am now intrigued about. I haven't read a Flash book in a decade. I dropped the Green Lantern books years ago. And I can't remember the last time I read Titans. The new books around these properties sound interesting.
I'll probably sample a bunch.
But it is crazy that I am looking at this as a jumping on point rather than a jumping off.
No, it's great. The DC Line should be for all ages. Beans as well as newbies - we're an important part of the legacy. Fingers crossed for Kara!
DeleteI like that so much - that *we* are a part of DC's legacy. Newbies, yes, because at some point, we all were newbies, but we've stuck it out and contributed our money and passion and we should be respected for that, also.
DeleteIf Superman is the Zero Hour/pre FP one from Lois & Clark, could Kara be the Pre-Crisis one from JL3001?
ReplyDeleteShe could, but I don't see that as happening. I'd be really happy for the New 52 version to continue her growth.
DeleteSupergirl is wearing her New 52 'S' Shield, so chances are it's her/ that version.
DeleteJohn Semper on Cyborg is a surprise. He’s most famous for being the man behind Fox Kid’s Spidey cartoon in the 90’s, but what’s not talked about as much is the fact he’s spent a few interviews copping an attitude about it that isn’t merited even if it were as good as he says it is, including blaming producer Margret Loesch for allowing it to be cancelled as part of a pissing contest with Avi Arad. Loesch on the other hand, while I think there’s a debate you could have on the actual QUALITY of the work she produced at the time, is the woman who stood up for Marvel during it’s time on brands like G.I Joe and Transformers, recounted here by Jim Shooter (http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/06/secret-origin-of-transformers-part-2.html) and this interview with Loesch herself here: http://www.blastfromthepasttv.com/mloeschinterview.html
ReplyDeleteThis woman, who effectively created the conditions that allowed Semper to be called in by Stan Lee as a friend to help get the Spidey show off the ground, that was suffering from being tied into the abandoned James Cameron movie, does not come across as the kind of person who would sabotage any of these productions just to spite someone. So either Semper was unaware of Fox’s various budget problems, most likely the reason the show not being renewed for a sixth season, or he’s been telling massive great porkies for a few years now.
On the other hand the show had the misfortune to be produced in the post Ninja Turtles and Power Rangers world, where network’s would spend time staring over their employees shoulders to make sure nothing too violent would make it on screen and have watchdog groups cutting into their profits. While I’ve always thought Semper’s show had bigger problems than just not being allowed to have actual punches or real guns he actually received notes demanding they make sure that when Spidey dropped down dramatically from on high he didn’t injure any pigeons, so it WILL be interesting to see what he’s got in comics. I’d like to be surprised.
This is fascinating - I know nothing about TV animation politics. Heck, I've never even seen a whole Spider-Man cartoon... I tried one once but the actor (I think it may have been a Greg Brady) kept talking about his 'Aren't May' and I couldn't take it! It'll be interesting to see what Semper does, considering he was apparently given the job about ten minutes before the con... I didn't get the impression he pitched for it, so much as DiDio wanted a buddy around.
DeleteMovie-Greg Brady pronounced it as "AWN'T" May rather than "ANT" May. I thought that was good, proper pronunciation. :P
DeleteThe 1990's version had some good moments but probably had more dreadful moments. (As for the non-violent thing,) Morbius had a mouth in his hand and he craved "plasma" - I suppose it was an upgrade from eye beams from Dracula, Frankenstein's Monster, and The Mummy from years prior. Felicia Hardy was substituted as Gwen Stacy. "Sins of the Father" story arc that went on forever. Chameleon whose transformation belt remained visible whoever he changed into because apparently children are too stupid to know the difference, just like everyone in universe. Spider-Man traveling to "our" earth and meeting with Stan Lee. However, there were good things to it, but looking back those things stick out.
Wow, really. What's interesting about TV animation politics, as it were is that Dan DiDio was a controversial figure in Transformers history. When "Transformers: Beast Machines" came out he didn't want continuity to be followed from the past "Beast Wars" continuity (do you detect a pattern, here) despite it being a follow up to the series. I can't remember all of the details but before he was a source of anger for fans of DC Comics, he was a source of anger of Transformers fans. It is even more interesting then that he chose someone who seems to incite controversy the way he does. BUT, I'm sure both have grown a lot since then. :P
DiDio is most likely hiring animation writers for their experience working with a team on larger properties and reliability to work to a deadline, as he brought cartoon vets like Christy Marx and Greg Weisman into the DC fold as well. Semper may very well be a buddy of DiDio's, but that doesn't mean he lacks the skills for the job he's been hired for.
DeleteJust as long as he doesn't act like his work on Cyborg is the best thing since the invention of the wheel.
DeleteTo me, Brigonos, Greg Weisman will always be the Captain Atom co-writer and gets props for that. And I'm not bothered where someone comes from, if they do a great job, they do a great job; I was just a bit nonplussed because Semper didn't seem like he'd had a burning desire to do the comic, it seemed he'd been offered it shortly before the con. I'll certainly give Cyborg a go.
Delete(Whoops, posted the Semper stuff before I finished typing the rest.)
ReplyDeleteFlash sounds promising. Wally is back and even if it sounds like an excuse to introduce other speedsters back into the New 52 I like the multiple Speed Force strikes idea since it feels like it fits the character pretty well. Mark Waid even created the Speed Force just by implying the coincidental wish fulfilment of the characters various origins WASN’T a coincidence, and his Year One story for Wally is all about an adult reflecting on how he had to return to the depressing real world after getting to spend an entire summer living out his greatest fantasy. So Barry being a mentor/father figure is already in the series’ blood and while I still think DC is throwing the word legacy around mostly as a cure all, Flash was the comic that embodied that perfectly.
On the other hand they still have all those silly lines all over the suit.
I’ll second your sentiments on Priest for Deathstroke. What’ll probably make it work is that Priest is a writer who isn’t especially merciful with his heroes. Kind of hard to see him excusing or glorifying Slade’s mercenary shtick. In fact, even though there’s a joke in Joe Kelly’s run before his, Priest was the writer who introduced Deadpool’s fourth wall breaking, using it as way for Deadpool to ignore the consequences of his actions while acting as if he was the centre of the universe (because, well, it was his comic book so he effectively was) before the character became insanely popular and the gag just became the norm. So yeah, maybe Deathstroke will finally be worth paying some actual attention to.
Superman makes up for the new suit with the Super Sons news and Lex as THE Superman. Dunno if it’s supposed to be John from the Lois and Clark miniseries but fatherhood is a genuinely new direction for the character that also feels right. If anybody could pull double duty as the world’s greatest hero and a family man, it’s Superman. As long as there’s plenty of cutaways to life at home for the Kents then everything will be just golden. Lex seriously deciding he’s going to do his enemy’s job and do it BETTER also sounds like a new but genuine direction, and though I’m already sold on it I think Tom King would be an even better it for that idea than Batman.
So yeah! Rushed maybe and I’m not sure legacy was what’s been missing as much as actual confidence in what DC is (this particular group came to power pushing for a resurgence of Silver Age style and they keep hiring Grant Morrison to write things so it’s really weird that this is something they don’t seem to have) but there’s a lot of promise here and most of my reservations are nitpicks (like that confounded lack of trunks. Lee’s promo art even makes it look like Supe’s is just wearing a pair the same colour as the rest of his costume which is just unfair and it is really strange to me that they refuse to give Batman his black boxers but DO insist on having the piping lead down to and draw attention to his crotch. Yugh!). Also as good as any of these ideas sound I still can’t help but find it strange that Dido’s biggest problem is continuity but they’re apparently insisting on this as either a soft reboot or an Infinite Crisis style sort of thing, which works by…actually acknowledgeing the thing he’s convinced is too cumbersome to work. You’d think he’d just give up and make the entire company into anthologies like Adventures of Superman or Sensation Comics or something. Which I would also be down with.
In any event I’m a sucker for anything by Rucka and Abnett. And the fact most of these are just Bat titles means I’m still more interested in what’s going on with Hanna-Barbera and Milestone.
Some brilliant comments, thanks Aikom. I still wish we were getting original Wally back ... the New 52 kid may have improved by now, but he's not the Wally West I grew up with.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm still bugged by the lack of classic Superman and Batman costumes. Superman, especially, doesn't look iconic without the trunks and regular design.
It seems that to make up for a "brighter" Superman they have to make his costume darker, black highlights and no red boots. I think the comic book industry as a whole needs to stop being an apologist when it comes to super hero costumes. I remember at first I was all for the movie X-Men costumes because it added realism to the genre, but today I just think that trying to make things "realistic" in universes that are completely unrealistic is what's silly. Some modification might be okay to modernize things a bit but if one went with realism everyone would be wearing black Kevlar/ armour - except Superman and Supergirl who are to inspire hope - however, with realism, then they would move so fast that basically no one would see them coming and would defeat every bad guy within seconds. Invisible Woman would never be visible and always be a secret weapon. The Flash would also move so fast no one would see him. And, so on, but then there would be no need for stories. Regarding Superman's costume, I always go back to Superman/ Gen 13 and Superman remarks that he was never "IN" fashion, so how could he be out of it. At least, I hope, he won't be a killer/ sadist, and Lois Lane will be in a greater spotlight.
DeleteI hope they make Wally more in personality who we lost, but then I think, I've been missing "my" Supergirl, Wonder Woman, and Superman since 1985, so I shouldn't be too upset about yet another character being altered "for the better."
I so agree about the costumes, let the movie outfits work for movies, but go wild in the comics. Give me those primary coloured, super-skintight, ultra-impractical duds!
DeleteAikom? Sorry Simon, my typing is drunk!
DeleteI still don't get: After COIE, things were reset and Superman of Earth-1 incarnated into the Superman of New Earth, who then incarnated as the Superman of Earth-0. However because of the Convergence, these Supermen were separated into their previous incarnations, as was Supergirl, and other heroes.
ReplyDelete52 Supergirl had lost her powers and had been best friends with Guy Gardner, Red Lantern but is now with powers and afraid of the Red Lanterns, including Guy Gardner. At one point she sees her previous incarnations, even as three other versions of herself are on the planet below - which all 52 versions of heroes are stumped by and go home to say good-bye to whatever families and friends they aren't currently fighting with - due to their angst or whatever because they are "younger and at their peak".
Pre-Flashpoint Superman, Zero Hour Parallax, Crisis' Supergirl and Flash were reinserted into COIE and as a result Kara and Barry lived and the original multiverse survived. However, this didn't result in Earth-1 or the multiverse existing in 1985 to today as it was but they "evolved" into the New 52 multiverse of 2015.
Even though it would just be that Parallax and Superman, Lois and baby would be anomalies, Kara and Barry were also not incarnated into New 52 versions. However, whatever form the multiverse was left in after COIE ended differently, Superman and family chose to come to Earth-0.
Pre-Flashpoint Supergirl and all the other heroes of various times and places were then wiped out as they couldn't have gone back to their respective origins because those never existed due to the original multiverse living but evolved into New 52 multiverse, and Telos-Planet becoming the new New 52 Earth-2.
Pre-Flashpoint Superman forgot about his Supergirl or at least wanted a version of his cousin to stay with him but instead Crisis' Kara left to wander the multiverse/ omniverse with Crisis' Barry Allen/ Flash. PF Superman arrived 10 years ago in-universe now that five years has passed since New 52 started and 52 Superman debuted five years earlier.
Meanwhile, in the universe of JL3001 (or another universe outside that) a seemingly Pre-Crisis Kara Zor-El prior to her new costume in Adventure Comics is launched in a more sophisticated version of her rocket ship by her Superman for a mission.
Now because of a "Rebirth," we seemingly have PF Superman taking over/ becoming New New 52 Superman.
I shouldn't care so much about continuity of fictional characters but I do. While there has always been messes because of poor writing or editing, I don't understand how after all these decades it could be so difficult to avoid such complication that resulted from New 52 and Convergence.
With COIE, aside from never really explaining how the new universe "evolved," we had Wonder Woman debuting in 1986 and causing Wonder Girl to now have to have a more convoluted origin than most super heroes ever since. We had Supergirl merging with Power Girl who became Atlantean, who was, according to her Secret Origins tale related to a previously incarnated Hawkman. Silver Age Hawkman had to become Golden Age Hawkman with the advent of Hawkworld, which because of Zero Hour created a version of Hawkman that never existed, not to mention a Batgirl that Green Arrows swore he'd never forget but did. Because of deciding to retcon the Doom Patrol years later, we had Beast Boy no longer being a part of that equation, which meant a new origin for him, which, thankfully because of Infinite Crisis, didn't have to be the new "Donna."
However, even with all that, I find myself more confused than even with all of the above. I also wonder what would have happened had DC never decided that a multiverse wasn't a good idea and COIE never happened. But, perhaps, like Shazam declared in the mini-series Post-COIE debut of Captain Marvel, when he starts thinking about the Marvel Family that was but never was, that path only leads to madness.
I doff my hat to you, not only for your memory, but for trying to get your head around the reboots and de-reboots. It's been quite a ride since 1985.
DeleteThanks. Yeah, it's kind of crazy to think we've been on such a ride for over 30 years!
DeleteThe main fact is: never in DC history has Superman pre-Crisis reincarnated in Byrne's Superman. That just did not happen! After Crisis Superman is living in new Earth, he mourns Kara and Barry and remebers Kal-L and goes on with his life for a couple of months before getting sent-off in "Whatever Happened..."
DeleteIt was then implied that Crisis made this change, but I would call that a borderline retcon, as it was never shown during Crisis. This is probably due to the fact that DC did not expect, initially, that the new authors would have changed the characters so deeply: the initial purpose was to just provide them with a simplified continuity (actually getting the very opposite!)
There's more to that: Wolfman's very first idea was to make Kal-El die and let him be replaced by a not-really-aged Kal-L, before Kara getting the short straw, instead! Imagine Byrne having to deal with that! (Basically what they are doing now with New52 and PreFP Superman)
So Convergence was actually acknowledging that we have multiple multiverses and they keep existing, dying and changing all the time, or in other words "It's a big, fine mess, but we enjoy it!"
Fascinating, Wolfman's original idea is new to me. I do remember that even at the time, I was a bit confused by the 'half-baked' period when elements of the old world's survived most-Crisis. DC never plan these things properly.
DeleteComments by creatives on these books indicate that the twice monthly titles will be going away in six months to go back to a once monthly exchange. Also, comments by other creators such as the ones on Gotham Academy say that their books are not cancelled.
ReplyDeleteThus, I think that whatevers going on with these books, were going to see DC announce a new line of books coming either November or December.
Now there's a bombshell, Jasae - just six months of bi-weeklies? I'm off to find me some interviews! Good news about Gotham Academy, though it's lost it's way a bit of late.
DeleteYeah, DC hasn't mentioned it but the creatives have been far more forthcoming on tumblr and twitter.
DeleteWell, Twitter and Tumblr are both public, so no problem you dropping some names. I've just been listening to Greg Rucka talking Wonder Woman on the Word Balloon podcast and he's certainly talking about being contracted to do 24 issues in one year.
DeleteAny chance that Rucka has mentioned WW isn't going to be a bloody barbarian born of Zeus and murdering rapists? I was all set to buy WW #1 but seeing the dark movie costume pushed me away. The whole fixation on WW holding a sword is a turn off as well. So many people seem to latch onto her Greek myths but not SF ones, and hide her powers behind the sword and shield. Granted even in the Bronze age she was seen with them, but not all the time. Maybe having Diana constantly shown with a phallic symbol of power close to her face is something I just wasn't born to understand. :P
DeleteI've always thought it more than a little strange that DC keeps trying to fix bombastic event continuity errors with more bombastic events, creating more continuity errors.
ReplyDeleteI completely stopped buying any new52 books by month 20. Since then I've peeked at the Superman "Truth" fustercluck, and have bought a few of the new lighter-toned books to sample them (Batgirl, Gotham Academy, Bizarro mini). Back to nada, excepting Superman: Lois & Clark. I am cautiously excited for the Rebirth-that's-not-a-reboot and plan to get several titles. However, there on a much shorter leash this time out; if I'm not hooked within the first arc, I'm gone again.
But. Rucka on Wonder Woman again is exciting. Rucka on Detective Comics sounds thrilling. More Jurgens on Superman is a dream come true.
Now if DC management will stop interfering every time they panic over a short-term loss and stay the course, build reader confidence and let their creators create, we'll have something good.
And I'll have a thinner wallet. :)
*they're - typing on a tiny screen with a tiny view box!
ReplyDeleteIs Rucka on Detective? I'd missed that.
ReplyDeleteAnd well done a
On at least trying a few New 52 titles. You may be surprised by how much fun Doomed was....
Rucka is on Detective? I'd missed that.
ReplyDeleteAnd well done on at least trying new New 52 comics - you may be surprised by how much fun Doomed! was.